What do you think? I imagine that some of you love that statement and others would like to knock someone’s teeth out right now.
The title line comes from part 1 of articles which can be found on the blog No Ambition But One.
I recommend the articles. They bring up some great points about the fire service. Check it out and let me know what you think.
I think there is certain merit to a lot discussed in these three articles. One thing that stuck in my mind was that two-hatters are spared from this argument. This should be a welcomed sign, typically they get thrown around a little in each debate.
Read part 1 here, part 2 here, and part 3 here.
From part 1: I will make a bold and unpopular pronouncement: there is too much to know how to do, and do well, for a volunteer to keep up.
From part 2: It’s high time for the fire service to quit trying to do everything and focus on selling what we do best.
From part 3: It’s quite obvious that a guy who is working a “real job” 60+ hours a week can hardly master the science of the fire service, much less the art of what we do. Hell, I spend much more time than that at work every week and still have very little idea of what’s going on.
He’s on the mark with many of the points, but debating the career and volunteer LODDs, as well as the LODD numbers themselves, is questionable.
Bill Carey
I think that this train of thought has a lot of merit in departments where there is or could be a formidable career force. Where it doesn’t really fit is in the very rural areas where paying someone to be a career firefighter is out of the question.
This is one of those variables which makes it so hard to have a cut and dry Volunteer vs. Career debate.
The other is typically the caliber of the debater. Too often do we see some whacker come out of left field with some off the wall argument.
And of course, we aren’t trying to eradicate the world of volunteers.
Beh.. grr… um.. “Rhehhttt!!” Oh wait… you didn’t write that statement.. Grrr.. uhh… “Somme Guuyyy!!!” Because I don’t know who to verbally evicerate yet, I’m going to stop fuming for a bit… but then I’m going over there and lift my keyboard up to whack the discussion over the head a few times.
Hey, “CAREER FIRE FIGHTERS” Guess what. There’s this world out there where people have real jobs where they work hard ALL DAY for a living. Some of them get hurt and killed while they do it. Some of those jobs require people to be REALLY SMART and study things like, y’know… algebra and.. law and.. science and… y’know.. Smart Stuff. These people have to know lots of complex information in order to get their jobs. Then, they have to consistently learn new things in order to keep their jobs and perform them effectively. It’s strange, I know. These people also seem to have the ability to maintain normal existences OUTSIDE OF THEIR JOBS and are able to function as normal people.
I know, it’s strange… it’s almost like there’s no limit to the amount of knowledge a person can absorb. I mean… you’d think that once a person learns one job, the knowledge they’d have to learn to become an effective firefighter would cause knowledge to leak out their ears or something. Weird.
Off I go! Thanks for pointing my attention to my “pet” conversation for the day.
I think that he makes some excellent points in all three of his posts, and some of the replies are well thought out also. I have a few things I’d like to throw in the mix, just for the sake of saying them.
I have been a volunteer for 20 years now in a combination system in Montgomery County, MD. I have been able to work my way up from probationary firefighter to where I can now act as a Volunteer Duty Operations Chief for the county, and try to do so as much as I can. I lived in one of the busier stations in the county off and for 7 years or so when I was in college. Here is what I have found that it boils down to:
1) You will always have career firefighters and volunteer firefighters who do not like each other just because they are either career or volunteer. Nothing will change either’s opinion on the other, and that is just life.
2) Attitudes in the station between career and volunteer staffs are handed down from the leadership on both sides of the fence. If your chief and president of the department have the attitude that the career staff are at your beck and call because they collect a paycheck, of course you’re going to get a shitty response.
3) If you prove yourself as competent, and don’t come into the station with an attitude of ‘this is my station, you’re just a visitor’ then things will be much smoother and people will be more likely to accept you and help you along.
I have had to prove myself every step of my volunteer life. When I first started out, I was a screw up. I spent a lot of years learning from good officers, good firefighters, and just good people. Career and Volunteer both. I think the problem between career and volunteer arises when people do just what they have to to get by, think that the fire department is a place to relax, hang out, play games, and socialize. There is an element of that to it, yes, but there is also the element of training, and training, and oh, by the way, have we talked about training? Sitting on your ass all night playing solitaire or watching TV isn’t going to cut it. People who come in once a week for 4 or 8 hours, and then try to run the department just aren’t competent enough to do so. Not in the same time frame as someone who is there every other, or third, or fourth day.
Each side creates, to a large extent, it’s own problems, and then propogates them throughout. There are just as many career staff who are lazy incompetent shitbags as there are volunteer staff who are lazy incompetent shitbags. Everyone knows who they are, and everyone rolls their eyes when you talk about them. Each person who joins the fire service, career or volunteer, writes their own ticket as far as whether or not they are going to be good, just get by, or be a complete tool. If you just want to come in once a week and that is all you can do, that is great, I’ll gladly take you. But don’t expect to have people treat you like the king of the jungle just because you belong.
I don’t know what his position on the subject is, but the same argument could be made for fire departments that do EMS. If he feels that the education and dedication required of paid, full-time firefighters is beyond the reach of most volunteers, does he also doubt the ability of most firefighters to attain mastery of fire suppression and paramedicine?
It is damned hard to adequately serve two masters, and my personal opinion is that, for most, it is an impossible task.
One thing’s for sure, though – professionalism isn’t conferred by a paycheck, and the laws of thermodynamics don’t have a volunteer exemption. The standards should be the same for both volunteer and paid – and here I’m talking about both EMS and fire suppression.
“It is damned hard to adequately serve two masters, and my personal opinion is that, for most, it is an impossible task.”
So, wouldn’t that mean it’s impossible to be an educator, author, blogger, weapons expert, and paid paramedic at the same time as well? Or are you the next coming of Stephen Hawking, smarter than everyone else?
LOL, good point.
On the other hand, the only thing I will claim to is being a good medic. All the others I enjoy, but only dabble at. I could be a better and more prolific writer if I didn’t work on a rig full time. I could put up more and better blog posts.
I teach alphabet soup card courses on my days off, but I’ll not coordinate and teach a paramedic course while I work a rig full time. Each of them is a full-time job, and deserve my best effort. I’ll do either-or, but not both.
And I’m a fair shot, but by no means a weapons expert or Master class shooter. I don’t get to practice nearly as often as I’d like. Perhaps if I quit my job and devoted myself to competition shooting, I could be, but maybe not.
There are only so many hours in the day to devote yourself to your craft. I stand by my original assertion – achieving excellence both in fire suppression/rescue and paramedicine is an unreachable goal for all but a very few. You can be adequate at both without much effort, good at both with a lot of work, but superior at both only with a truly gifted intelligence or a lot of wishful thinking.
But thanks for the props anyway! Even in your sarcasm, you give me more credit than I do myself.
Great summary Geoff.
Geoff, I agree with Bill, very well response. Nothing there I could argue with, which is unusual for me, LOL> Stay safe out there Brothers, and Sisters.
i hope this doesnt turn into a career vs volunteer firefighter argument, as so many of these blogs and such do.. at times we all receive the same training…. as far as the demands go for a volunteer department and not being able to keep up, here’s my two cents worth… some towns, a good majority of them here in the state of utah are all volunteer… we need to do our best to keep up with the demands of our professions. i work 50 plus hours a week, and my two hours of fire training a week is not enough. Because I love the service I provide to my community as a volunteer firefighter, i have made it one of the major priorities in my life. if you truly enjoy the service you provide and want to excel as a firefighter, not just “get by” then I feel you must make time to further your training and keep up with the trends, standards, and ever changing policies in the fire service. Just “getting by” with your training may get you injured or killed or do the same to one of our “brothers”. I find the time to keep up on the new training standards. I may not be a career or paid firefighter, but am one of the ones that my community counts on in an emergency, and i know i better be up to par and beyond when it comes to my job…
So much of this article is true, but I cannot bring myself to feel as if I am not important to my community. Our VFD covers an area that is not readily accessible to the city FD. If we were to throw our hands up and say that we are not worthy of protecting our people TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY then our people would suffer the lack of any timely response. Yes, we cannot train everyday- but our guys show up early to meetings to review skills, check equipment, and exercise. We take time out of our lives to do ECA certification so that we can be better responders for our community and so we can assist EMS personnel on scene. We do the best we can, at least we do at Woden VFD.
But the part that is the most frustrating for me about this career vs. vollie debate is that I look up to those guys that look down on me. When the career boys show up and take command we give it respectfully and wait for instructions. We look up to you guys because you are the real deal. We learn from you if you when you act and speak. When we break our ass doing the best we can and career firefighters show up and act as if we were not important or even in the way it is very discouraging.
Do it for your people. Do it because you care. But do it together because neither of us are going anywhere.
Corgill,
This is some decent feedback. From you and many others who have commented. The debate isn’t career vs. volunteer. I didn’t even get that the articles were anti-volunteering. The feeling I got was a mere point being made about what it takes to be a volunteer, the need for a lot of time to be spent volunteering and training, and the thought that maybe it is difficult to volunteer AND be a master of the art of firefighting and all that comes with it.
I am certain that just like the vollie vs. career debate can go on, so can this debate over career firefighters not putting forth the effort or departments not training their career staff to the level they should.
Professionalism is professionalism no matter if you are vol or paid. As a vol firefighter,medic and ER RN I try to keep up with current regs etc. It is my duty to do so. To myself,patients and my partners. Is it tough–yes it is.
Thank you all for reading our posts. We welcome you to come over and debate with us. Please note that there are three authors on our site and we have very distinct views. I am Patrick, the author of the original post in that series. You may disagree with me but you should know that anyone who knows me would agree that I am a long way from anti-volunteer.
I have read the three-part series.