First of all, I really appreciate the comments on this topic. I also appreciate it not being turned into a vollie vs. career argument.
You can read the initial post and catch up on what we are talking about here.
And again, I will reiterate that we are not talking about anti-volunteerism, doing away with volunteers, or any of that. We are discussing Volunteering and how much training, knowledge, and experience volunteers need to keep up with Firefighting this day in age.
Today on the Secret List, Billy Goldfeder posted the following:
INDIANA FIREFIGHTERS VIOLATED LABOR LAWS IN ATTEMPTED CONFINED SPACE RESCUE
State officials say Liberty Township Firefighters violated occupational safety and health regulations and as a result, the LTFD is taking corrective action to avoid having to pay a $1,500 fine imposed by the Indiana Department of Labor.
An investigation by DOL found that a team of firefighters who were not trained in confined-space rescue entered a 5-foot-diameter by 12-foot-deep well pit to rescue four people, including two firefighters, who had been overcome by muriatic acid vapor and/or hydrogen sulfide. 2 civilians died that day.
2 Firefighters were overcome by fumes as they tried to rescue the two men, who had entered the pit to make repairs. It is not out of the ordinary to use muriatic acid to clean well pumps, pipes and other components with sulfur buildup and corrosion. Both Firefighters survived.The Liberty Firefighters are taking a proactive and cooperative approach to insure this doesn’t occur again.
The firefighters are volunteer.
You can read more on this story here
Could this be a reflection of the topic we are discussing? Could this have happened anywhere?
Confined Space Rescue and Training are a discipline of firefighting and rescue operations because of lessons learned in the past. Those lessons were learned the hard way = LODD’s. There is no reason at all why firefighters are entering a confined space without proper training.
Feel free to comment as we watch the events unfold in Illinois.
Updated with links to prior confined space deaths and a Safety Stand down due to them:
- IAFC issues stand down advisory after confined space rescue incidents
- Safety Stand Down to Discuss Confined Space Rescues .pdf
- Safety Stand Down for Fire Fighter Safety Scheduled for June 21 - From 2006
I believe that this incident could have happened in either form of service (paid vs volunteer) though I believe the motivations might be somewhat different. Career personnel may be compelled to solve this problem because that’s what they’re paid to do. Even without training, someone has to solve it and they are in the best option.
On the flip side, volunteers may be compelled to over extend their training due to their desire to help heir neighbors and e fact that there is no one else. The patients fate rests with them and on nobody else.
Either way, our (the fire service) hearts will blind us to the obvious risk and could put us in repeatable situations such as this. The only alternative may be to select a local community member to serve as a true safety officer, someone who can objectively evaluate our training and capability to solve the situation.
Let me get this straight:
If a career department goes beyond their training to provide a service, that is problem solving.
If a volunteer department does it, it is “over-extending”.
This incident happened because the threat to health wasn’t recognized, atmosphere wasn’t tested, PPE wasn’t worn and leadership failed. And it failed because either they weren’t trained at an awareness level or they chose to ignore their training. So, it is still a failure of leadership.
And for discussion that isn’t about career and volunteer, I am sure seeing “career” and “volunteer” alot.
The difference between career and volunteer, at least here in Illinois is: TRAINING through our state is scheduled during the week, so the paid guys can get paid and their buddies get the OT to cover them.
Volunteers must take off work, which can be hard to do if you are self-employed, schedule vacation to attend the training for which they don’t get paid to attend and even dip into their own pockets for lodging and meals.
Contrary to popular belief, they do not buy whacker gear with their hard earned money.
I would also like to point out that people with big brains taught me and taught me well.
Many of them were career firefighters moonlighting as IFSI instructors.
Despite all the impediments to getting the training, many committed non-paid professionals will take whatever steps are necessary to get that training and provide their communities with adequate services.
I don’t think it makes any difference if you are a paid, volunteer, or combination department. In a situation like this it comes down to leadership and training.
LEADERSHIP: Are/were there SOPs/SOGs in place for these kind of situations and if so, were they communicated effectively to all levels of the department, from the Chief right down to the newest recruit. If not, then there is the first and most serious break in the chain.
TRAINING: Training academy’s and certification processes differ from state to state, but there is always In-House training. I have spent the majority of my firefighting career as a volunteer and now how hard it is to find the time to take a lot of the classes, but there is always In-House Training. Be aggressive and proactive. If you have members in your department that are trained in specialty/technical areas, have them teach an In-House class on that subject. If you send someone to a class, have them come back and teach an in house class on what they learned. It may not be a certification class, but it will at least make the other members of the department aware of things to be aware of and what limits have to be adhered to. I am very fortunate to work full-time for a combination department and volunteer for one as well, both of which put a strong emphasis on training together as “firefighters” and not “career/volunteer.”
As a volunteer I understand the problem, but is there an answer. What does a community do when they lack the funds or size to have a paid department? I attend training and schools every chance to better my dept. We must rely on our chiefs and sops to keep us safe. How do we teach our members to control their emotions when they think they can help. What about those of us who have the training but lack the experiences?
Hey, Rhett;
Your Facebook version of this discussion has kinda exploded!
Perhaps we should do a netcast on this.
Just tryin’ to help a brother out.
You know; I could moderate the discussion.
Thanks Chief. I am one step ahead of you though. I am working on booking the topic and some guests for the firefighter netcast show next week!
Could it happen anywhere?
Absolutely. It just did. Again:
http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/news/fullstory/newsid/116220
And again…
http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/news/fullstory/newsid/107232
And again…
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=012324802783218794896%3Ajxi7xl2gbak&ie=UTF-8&q=confined+space
In my opinion, it has nothing to do with whether or not you receive a paycheck. It has a lot to do with training, understanding and most importantly having the discipline not to act when we are confronted with the challenge to follow in someone else’s footsteps when those footsteps have lead to injury or death.
Read these reports and you’ll find that many firefighters die going in to save “trained professionals” who were the first to breach SOGs and the KSAs developed through their training and education, only to be followed by others who let their emotions over-run their ability to detect impending danger.
These are very unfortunate but mostly avoidable incidents.
Stay safe. Train often.
Can it happen anywhere?
Absolutely. It already has. Again.
And again, and again…
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=012324802783218794896%3Ajxi7xl2gbak&ie=UTF-8&q=confined+space
I don’t think these incidents have anything to do with career or volunteer inasmuch as they are all very unfortunate but very avoidable incidents.
Many firefighters are injured or killed trying to save trained career public works personnel who also ignore warning signs, available equipment, their training or SOGs. Regardless of compensation, too many allow their emotions to over-run logical thought processes and history is repeated time and time again.
Not only do we need adequate training, equipment and the awareness to avoid such hazards; we need to have the discipline not to act when the outcome is so very predictable.
Sad but true.
Stay safe. Train often.
Training and leadership; my points exacttly.
And not repeating the same mistakes over and over and over and over….
The big issue nobody addresses is COST. Here in my home county (Annual budget $3 million for all county departments, including road, courthouse staff, ems, hospital, planning, building, etc. and the millage rate is already at maximum allowed by law) we have 9 volunteer departments to cover 574 square miles with a population of 13,000. Each department averages 15-20 volunteers, and typically has two engines, a tanker (we have no hydrants outside the two small towns), a rescue, and a brush truck or two. Our county pays our truck insurance by including our apparatus in the county insurance pool, and does the same for our worker’s compensation. They give us $6000 per year per department (total about $60,000) and occasionally help with matching funds for a grant, when they can. We have to fund-raise for anything else we need.
It sucks, but what’s the alternative? Can we go “paid”? One, mind you, ONE engine with two firefighters 24/7 would cost about $500,000 per year, for staff alone! That’s one-sixth the entire county budget! That wouldn’t even allow compliance with “2 in/2 out” rule, so there would be NO entry or rescue measures. Any “one room and contents” fire would simply mean a total loss. And remember, that’s ONE ENGINE for the ENTIRE COUNTY! We’re talking 30 minute response times to most residents, and no simultaneous calls, period.
It’s real nice for some of you “big city” folks to sit around and talk about how “volunteers suck”, but here in the rural 98% of the USA (yes, 98%…look up “urban” on wikipedia, and you’ll find 2% of the country is considered urban) we have NO CHOICE. Well, that’s not true: we can either have volunteers, or have NOTHING.
What do you suggest we do?
I totally agree with you. I think that the original writers of the articles will as well. The debate I brought up over volunteers was not about vollie vs. career. The comments took it that way though. The debate was over volunteering this day in age, what it takes to do it, and whether or not volunteers have the amount of time it takes to be trained to the level they should be.
The debate was not meant to be about whether or not we should have volunteers.
I understand, as do the writers I believe, that there is a significant need for volunteers. Especially due to cost as you point out. It is true that in many areas there is no justification, ability, or need to have paid firefighters.
Furthermore, you will never hear this author say that “volunteers suck”!
Thanks for your comment and apologize for the miscommunication of the comments skewing the original reasoning for this article and the one prior.
We will be discussing this on Firefighter Netcast live this Wednesday Night at 9pm. Check out http://firefighternetcast.com for more information (I am posting it later tonight).